Talk:The Witch

Cr0wned
Has anyone been able to get the Cr0wned acheivemnt? We have tried close range hunting rifles, shotguns and more...

I think it might be a joke one, Cr0wned 
 * First of all, sign your posts, guys. Secondly, Valve never makes "joke" achievements, and they've used "tubespeak" (as I call it) in achievements before...remember the pyro pack's "OMGWTFBBQ?" And they had another "0wned" one before too, I just can't think of it at the moment. takua108 18:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sure it's spelt Cr0wnd, and Takua108 could it be Hot PotatOwned you were thinking of :) -- [ IzTheWiz ] 21:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Wandrian Wvlf 00:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)Stand close enough to the Witch so that she starts standing up but isn't startled. Blast her with your shotgun.

A player named Exile gave me a handy script that makes it trivial to get this achievement (I used it for practice). It basically spawns a witch in front of you, gives you an auto-shotgun (regular shotgun works too) and then turns on god mode after your first shot (in case you missed, so you don't die needlessly). He said he was posting it on the internet, so in the near future there should be a Google result for "ezWitch.cfg". If you don't want to wait, you can just type: "sv_cheats 1; give auto_shotgun; z_spawn witch; god 1; sv_cheats 0;" in your console while pointing at where you want the witch to spawn, and then practice from there. Denkkar 22:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * But where's the fun in that? :P Ashsflames 07:50, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The fun is the false confidence it gives you. After practicing and then starting a game, you yell to your friends, "STAND BACK, I'M A PROFESSIONAL", run up to the witch, and promptly get destroyed. The humiliation doesn't end there though, because the process repeats itself as soon as you meet the next witch :( Denkkar 18:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * To practice cr0wning a witch,just go into NM3 on commentary.There's commentary node at the end that spawns the witch everytime it's used and if you don't kill her in one shot,she won't attack and you can just keep practicing.--76.242.46.206 19:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

It's easy an possible. However you can only do it with the shotgun at execution range. Even the Hunting Rifle requires more than a single shot.

Expert incapacitation exploit?
The shooting a teammate on expert so that the Witch won't kill that teammate sounds like an exploit to me. Also kind of funny that you even discovered this... guess someone got in your line of fire :)

Denkkar 20:21, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The Witch's health.
Wandrian Wvlf 00:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)I haven't but a few dozen hours playing the game, but in my experience the Witch normally has 1000 health although for some reason I've tooled around on the easy difficulty and seen the damage done total up to 2000 a few times.

In retrospect, it may have just been that I'd encountered a Witch twice in the same chapter. Wandrian Wvlf 00:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, one suspects you may also have encountered 2 tanks in the same chapter as well. It happens and it does screw the stats! Denkkar 18:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Is there any way to move the dead witch pic to the right side of the page like the other pics as it looks out of place on the left and disrupts the flow of the text--Spygon 16:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Reupload it, I suppose. I'll give it a try. ZombieRevolution

A Section on her inspiration?
Just the other day, I viewed the popular Spanish movie REC. It is considered one of the finest zombie films and documentary style fictions of recent years and was recently remade in the US and released as the movie Quarantine.

In the film's finale the two protagonists run into an infected woman. She is seriously deformed and carries many traits of the Witch.

Here is a picture of the character:



Notice the similar looking attire. Of course Left 4 Dead's Witch isn't topless but the visual similarities are obvious. You can't tell from that picture, but she has claws in the feature. Furthermore in the film she did not get aggressive until startled by the protagonists. Characters made it an important precaution not to make noises or shine lights on her or other infected persons.

Here is a clip of the movie's finale where she appears. Of course it carries many spoilers, and I would recommend this movie to anyone who likes horror movies and zombie fiction.



Note the glowing eyes due to the effects of night vision and bloodcurdling shriek.

Although it's only speculation, I would like to add a section about the REC zombie as the basis for the Witch. My reasoning being that it's informative and that on the Francis and Louis pages, it states that they're modeled after Mike Booth and Shaun from Shaun of the Dead without completely conclusive evidence. However the similarities with all of these characters is obvious and they without a doubt stem from them. REC has become a highly talked about movie with zombie and horror enthusiasts in recent years and received a large audience and rave reviews across the Spectrum.

I say go for it, but since none of it is confirmed by Valve, I'd make sure to emphasize that all information therein is speculative. - ZombieRevolution

I remember a VERY old article about L4D in 2007 and it mentioned the Witch,so I doubt it.--76.242.46.206 19:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Removed this tidbit:
"*In one of the trailers, where an arm bursts through a doorway besides Louis, who then shoots it, it is believed that this is a Witch due to the fact that it has the strength to hit through the door and the fact that it has claws. This is verified in the games opening cinematic."

It's not informative, the game is out and everyone knows this.

Eminem?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpNCcKk__Q&feature=related

Is he talking about Left 4 Dead?

In any case, people have picked up on it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQGWQpN6oF4&feature=related
 * I think it was supposed to be talking about another Witch, not the one from Left 4 Dead. I believe it was used for promotional means in another series. - §tigma-231  ¤ ৳ here's a hole in my neighbourhood [ talk  ][ cont ] 16:36, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Tank can kill Witches
Simply put, if you're a Tank and you punch a Witch, you'll instantly kill her. This happens a lot when a Witch is in front of a closed door, and a Tank Player tries to reach the survivors from a distance away.

Playing as the Witch:
This would be an interesting add-on to the game. To play as a Tank, someone is randomly chosen to massacre the survivors (You will be the Tank). Well, they could do the same thing for the Witch. If someone startles the Witch in versus, someone could be randomly chosen to play as her. Her main attack is incapacitating a survivor in one hit (Long recharge rate though), secondary is slashing with her claws and her health would be 1000-2000. Achievement: Witch's wrath: Kill one of the survivors. Desterbing: As a Witch, kill two survivors.
 * As cool as playing as the Witch could be, it would be a little disorienting for the player to suddenly become the Witch once she is startled. It would take the player a second or two to get their bearings, and by this time the Survivors are already shooting at her.  If a player was allowed to start as the Witch, that would solve this problem, but cause another.  If the Witch spawns in a spot off the main path, or if the Survivors sneak by her without startling her, the Witch player would be stuck doing nothing.  Also, having a player play as the Witch would take away her uniqueness.  --MadDawg2552 20:47, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * You make a valid point Mad Dawg, this is how choosing who to play as her would go out: Once a player gets close enough to her that she startles growling, the special infected you are curretly playing as (remember, the person controling the Witch is picked randomly, like a Tank) will be moved to idle, and you will be in the Witchs view; if she is shot at or eventually gets up, you will then play as her, unless she is "CR0WNED". Or, in your scenario, if the players do get past her, she will eventually revert back to crying, and you will move back to your special infected, and the witch will stay where she is, without the player being in limbo with nothing to do. -- User:Monobrow1 16:23, 22 Febuary 2009 (UTC)

I the witch wasnt made a playable infected for a reason due to if a person controled the witch they whould either waste alot of time just sitting there crying also when alerted the witch is surposed to attack the person who set it off to players just running around like an idiot shooting randomlyor you have the other problem of a infected that can one hit incap people so with 4 swipes could end the round in secounds.I feel the witch is fine she just needs slighty more health. Spygon 09:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


 * UHH! You arn't listening! The person playing as the Witch WON'T sit there the whole time until someone comes. Once she is starting to growl, someone will be choosen (icon will say "You may play as the Witch, be ready", similar to Tank icon), then once startled the person can play as her. If they sneak past, then nothing happens. Also (you didn't read it) the Witch can't just keep doing her "incap. claw attack". It will have to recharge after some time until she can utilize that attack, like boomer bile and smoker tongue; You have to wait to use your main attck. So after the incap. claw attack is used, she will only be able to melee, with a bit more damage than other special infected. And for HP, 2000=too much, 1000=too little...1500=just right. -- User:Monobrow1 3:27 PM Febuary 23 2009 (UTC)

New Witch Skin?


I'v looked round on fpsbannana.com and playin onlin and alot of ppl think the witch skin is funny, should someone make a new witch skin like this??? versus the original (concept art image, not actual Witch):
 * Weird image. Why would you want to put pants on it, though?  I think the Witch looks perfectly fine without them, though sometimes I wonder...why does she sit around in nothing but undergarments? - §tigma-231  ¤ ৳ here's a  hole  in my neighbourhood [ talk  ][ cont ] 02:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the Witch would look cool with pants and blood 2. Like at first she is crying, but when people get up to her, she has her shirt and pants covered in blood (at least by pic), so it matchs her role in da game, innopcent and CREEPY LONG FINGERED WITCH CLAWIN THE CRAP OUTA ME! ther wuz already a skin like that but they over did the blood and added cuts, and the pants were skin tight jeans, not shorts. Thta skin is kk. But someone could make a skin like that, idd download that, but honestlly, the witch is fine the way she is.


 * I would'nt go so overboard with the Witch like in the pic (blood, ect.), just add shorts really. The fact that she is in undergarments all the time it just...well it is not sexy if thats what the design was for...it is funny, but is the Witch supposed to be funny?...Giving it shorts would just make more sense. I think the question is, if someone made a Witch skin with shorts rather than undergarments...would you download that, would you rather have the skin with shorts, rather than the one with panties. I think I would. -- User:Monobrow1

I think that image is from the strategy guide.--76.242.46.206 19:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Recent Patch
Because of the recent patch, does the Witch spawn directly on the main route to the saferoom now? The patchnotes said she and the Tank spawn "directly on the escape route," so what does that mean, exactly? BlackliteWrath 12:38, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure it means that the Tank and Witch are now much more likely to spawn in the way of the route(s) to the safe house. - §tigma-231 ♠ ৳ hаt i ɯill nəvər escaρe [ łalk  ][ ςont ] 15:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * But only on versus, right? TheCreaturenator16 14:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, in every gametype. I've noticed that she spawns in the way much more often when my friends and I play campaign. - §tigma-231  ♠ o  ƒ  my caliber { τalk }{¢ont } 14:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hm. That's interesting. Thanks. TheCreaturenator16 16:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

"Don't scare me twice"
The Witch, obviously, can be startled; Once the Witch has killed whoever startled her, it IS possible, to scare her, again. When she is running, if a player has a molotov, and ignites her, she will go after THAT player too. This is something people should be weary of, especially on versus, or on expert. The Witch if startled twice, she has the potential to kill two survivors, this incident has happened once while I played. It is also rumored, that if you stay in the Witch's path when she is fleeing, OR shoot at her as she is running, she will attack you still. Is that possible, has THAT ever happened to anyone? --User:Monobrow1
 * Yeah, the trapping her as she was running happened to a friend of mine when we were playing on Expert, and I've startled a Witch when she was running away before. I've also seen Witches (only on Expert, though) run away and go right back into hiding (i.e. starting to cry again) after she kills a Survivor if she doesn't get killed before she flees. It kind of sucks. --User:Chitinous Necross
 * Most of the time, we're able to kill the Witch before she successfully kills any one of us, so there's not really a large window for her to go running off, screaming her head off. However, there have been some slightly awkward occasions where I've accidentally opened/shut a door on her, and she has a seizure and runs away.  Once I did it on The Town, and she just stood behind a truck and screamed until the AI brought her down.  Needless to say, it was...strange. - §tigma-231  ♠ ৳ hаt i ɯill nəvər escaρe [ łalk  ][ ςont ] 16:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Fuel bottle for Burn the Witch achievement
About a week ago, I was playing L4D on Live, and I was carrying a fuel bottle. I managed to get the witch angry a bit, then was unable to escape her proximity before she got pissed enough to attack. She knocked me down and started mauling me, and I looked over and saw my fuel bottle. I shot it and the witch lit up like a Christmas tree. I then get the popup saying I got the Burn the Witch achievement. Now I noticed the achievement details saying a fuel bottle does not work, but I think I've seen myself that it does, in fact, work. Unless it doesn't work on the PC version, I think the article should be changed to reflect the fact that it does work. MaverickStevens 08:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Why Does the Witch act this way?
This is what I have narrowed it down to: 1.) This is just an act, she does this to fool survivors into helping her, which results in their death.

2.) Unlike other infected, she does have a brain, and has prezombie memories which means she may be recalling the killing and death of friends and loved ones.

3.) She chooses not to fight, starving herself (pain of starvation=crying, also explains why she looks skinny).

So if that is why she crys, why does she kill survivors, but not consume them, and why does she run after they die? Is this a variation of "The Rage" virus, so she just kills survivors out of spite...or is there a good reason behind it all.... --User:Monobrow1

I'd say that it was just the first one if the Witch attacked any Survivor immediately on sight, with no warning, growling or startling, and she attacked all of the Survivors, not just one (or, very rarely, two). However, since that was the original design and it was deemed too harsh by Valve, her new actions may be just for gameplay balance. The attacking all survivors, not necessarily the no startling or provoking. --User:Chitinous Necross

i feel theres a slight bit of Humanity left in the witch but is struggling to fight off the infection causing the witch to have a very shattered and mucked up mind that can lead to outbursts of total rage.She is crying due to trying to hold on to her humanity while being bombarded with the urge and memories of killing people but when she it startled or attacked her shattered mind is over come by the infected rage impulses  and instanly kills the person that caused the outburst but after quickly realising what she has done she escape the scene to try to stop her totally losing it.158.230.100.102 09:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * She does cover her face and head with her hands after fleeing, meaning she could now extremely regret attacking the survivors. She runs off crying and shouting, meaning that she possibly didn't mean to hurt them, it is just her infection that makes her do it? -- [ IzTheWiz ] 09:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * And after the short sprint, she dissapears. How do you call that? Magical infection? --SilentShadow 06:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * No, if you watch carefully, she climbs up and over something that goes out of the map. Like, on The Apartments, she climbs over one of those wooden fences or the pile of fire escape rubble. TheCreaturenator16 14:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, the pain of starvation one is probably incorrect, because no infected have ever been witnessed eating anything. Victims, animals, random plant life. Nothing. TheCreaturenator16 16:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * They eat actualy: 1.Dead cows have their heads eaten away (only the skull if left. 2.Zoey's quote "...I've got tooth marks all over me". 3.The infected spread in the form or rabbies, meaning they bite someone to assimilate them, which implies that they eat flesh. 4.The infected vomit alot while idle, if they wouldn't eat anything, they couldn't vomit anything up, moreever so much of it. --SilentShadow 18:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That, and Bill says: "If I go down, don't let those bastards eat me." Then again, graffiti on Dead Air claims that "They don't eat" and "They don't sleep". -- Five Dog ( Talk ){ Updates } 21:46, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the graffiti means that they do not stop to eat, they feast on the go! --SilentShadow 22:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is spread through biting, because it's a form of rabies, but who said that those cows weren't killed by humans? I mean, they're in piles. Also, sometimes the zombies who are vomiting will just die for no reason. Additionally, the substance they vomit appears to be bile. You make lots of bile. Bill is probably just misinformed, and the infected don't actually bite the survivors because they sense somehow that they are immune, they just beat them. TheCreaturenator16 22:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the cows in the piles. In Dead Air, an evacuation poster asks if you have been in contact with livestock in the past 48 hours. Taking this to be an indication that it was widely believed that the infection originated in cattle, farmers were quick to respond and were forced to kill and dispose of their livestock. Resulting in the pile of corpses. However, there are many cow skeletons in Blood Harvest indicating that they may have been eaten away at by the horde. As to your point about not biting, it wouldn't really work to have a "biting" animation. As it stands, the zombies appear to hit you. But they may in fact be biting as well. Hitting looks fine, but to have a zombie "bite the air" and it somehow hurt you, would not look right. To counter this, the infected would have to grab you first and then bite. Much like in "Dead Rising". This would completely destroy the game mechanics and wouldn't fit in to gameplay. I believe that the designers simplified the infected's actions so they appear to just thump you. And about the graffiti: "They don't eat". It is implied from this that they don't eat at all because it is followed up with: "What keeps them going?" If they did eat, this wouldn't be a valid question. -- Five Dog ( Talk ){ Updates } 23:09, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So the Witch leaves the survivors alone because she knows they are immune. But when they get close enough, she attacks them in self defense, but since the infected don't eat (stated above), she just runs off instead. One thing is left untold though. Why does she cry? If she had memories of human life, she wouldn't attack them in the first place(so recalling memories is probobly incorrect); and why does she get spooked by lights and kill whoever is holding them. (and just to say, why do her eyes glow?). Monobrow1 23:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

All valid points but why is she half naked?Derekproxy 22:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well there's no real way to answer that. It's like asking why do all hunters wear blue hoodies, or why each tank wears identical trousers or even why each Boomer is bloated in the exact same way as the next. There's no real reason behind it; it's simply to make the character interesting, unique and memorable. -- Five Dog ( Talk ){ Updates } 22:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * At least they made sure she was only half naked as two weirdos on the FEAR wiki got into it over alma being naked and "Hot" scary huhDerekproxy 22:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Assault Rifle
"A recent glitch or Easter egg in the game has been discovered which allows the assault rifle to shoot an entire clip of ammo in one shot. You can accomplish this by switching to your pistols and holding melee, switching back to the Assault Rifle (while still holding melee), then holding down shoot along with melee, after about 5 to 7 seconds letting go of melee while still holding shoot. If done correctly it should allow you to do the specified glitch or Easter egg."

If I'm not mistaken, the Assault rifle now has the potential to kill the witch easily. This only works if you have the Survival Mode update. As her max health is 1000 and damage per magazine for said weapon is 1600, this glitch can - I can confirm it - kill the witch instantly. It does not even startle her. Also, considering the fact that you can shoot from neutral range, i.e. From a distance that will not begin to alert her, this is far safer. It is also easier, because you do not have to land headshots, all you have to do is make sure they hit her somewhere. It is MUCH safer than a shotgun headshot. With this in mind, Valve may patch this, so I was wondering if we should add this as a viable tactic for killing the witch. Unless it's there somewhere and I've missed it? -- Five Dog (talk) 18:51, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Tried it on PC version of Left 4 dead patch 1.0.1.3, the easter egg is either fixed or false. I've tried everything to the letter and it still shoots normaly after the mellee is let go. --SilentShadow 19:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well it certainly works on the Xbox360. I've just done it. Perhaps it's another update that PC users get first? -- Five Dog (talk) 20:02, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I Dought it, XBox and Play Station (A.K.A. CrapBox and Piss Station) always get games and updates sooner then the PC does. Don't beleave me? Look at Halo release dates, GTA4 release dates and so on... I think that "easter egg" is just a coding error made in the XBox version. --SilentShadow 20:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Heheheh. Alright first off, it's the Gaystation and the SexBox. That's what people seem to call them. Don't know why it's "Sex"Box though. And second, do you have Survival Mode installed? I think it came with that DLC.
 * Oh, and no need to be angry towards other consoles. -- Five Dog (talk) 20:12, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Not to get angry? They're the competitors of my gaming system, they're imposible to contol (especialy in FPS games including L4D), they can't do anything else then play overpriced games at sooner release dates and still get some glory... What's not to hate? All they ever achieved is stealing cash from PC gaming advancedment... --SilentShadow 20:20, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW look at this, maybe you'll see things my way: CrapBox is plainly crap and PC is a thing that goes to the starts...

What did I just say? There's NO need to hate on other consoles. You're happy with the PC and I'm happy with the Xbox. We're getting off topic here, if you don't have an answer to my original question then that's alright. But if you want to have a console/computer flame-war then by all means do. But not here. It's hardly practical to have a disscussion about this on Talk:Witch. -- Five Dog (talk) 20:30, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * And in this case the XBox is an abomination of the PC, created by some witch, it's all on topic.
 * I answered your question looong ago: it's probably an error made in the code of CrapBox's L4D.
 * As I recall I told you what is the readon to hate consoles just 10 minutes ago.
 * BTW this is a board created, edited and viewed with the PC, not CrapBox. --SilentShadow 20:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Your rant is over. Take this somewhere else. --86.45.196.216 12:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly. You need to stop your argument here. Take it up somewhere else. -- Five Dog ( Talk ) 12:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked this was a discussion, if you view it as a rant - you need help. --SilentShadow 12:45, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

No matter what you call it, it's finished. -- Five Dog ( Talk ) 12:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

No matter what you think it was finished at "--SilentShadow 20:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)" --SilentShadow 12:50, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, I'm finishing this. Would the two of you stop bickering like preschoolers who think one toy is cooler than the other?  It doesn't matter.  As long as the system can play a game, it's a fine system.  There's absolutely no sense in arguing about it, because you're just going to keep going on and on about it until the end of time.  It's just a fight where there is no victor. - §tigma-231  ♠ o  ƒ  my caliber { τalk }{¢ont } 14:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Juuuust great... More assholes join the fray... Poking their noses where they don't belong... --SilentShadow 14:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm just trying to keep the peace. You're the one who's being a jerk by continuing what's now over.  After this, no responses trying to fuel the flame should be acknowledged by anyone.  Understand? - §tigma-231  ♠ o  ƒ  my caliber { τalk }{¢ont } 14:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I ended the discussion long ago, your tries to "keep the peace" do noting more then annoy. --SilentShadow 14:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Can someone please lock this section? It seems that these children can't agree on which toy to play obsessively. Anyway, are you guys sure that you can't do it on PC? I'm pretty sure I did it accidentally the other day. TheCreaturenator16 03:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1. This was finished over a long time ago. 2. You are just an idiot, do not think you are above the others, save your "children" chatter because I'm probably older then you anyway. 3. This is not a forum, you can't lock this because it's not a topic or a thread. 4. If you think you did it on the PC then make a video of it so that we can see for our selves and not take your word for pure coin. --SilentShadow 10:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1. Dude, thanks for correcting me. I now have learned, even though you are wrong. 2. I don't remember how I did it, but I'll play some more after my finals are over and try to get back to you guys. TheCreaturenator16 22:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and by the way, did you call Stigma an asshole? Wow, dude, bad move. TheCreaturenator16 22:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1.I'm wrong about nothing. 2.Ever heard of "screenshot or it didn't happen? well screenshots are easily faked so I say "video or it didn't happen, I have L4D up to the latest patch and it doesn't work. 3.I didn't say "asshole" I said "assholes", "more assholes" to be precice, that means everyone who wrote something, are writting something and will write something to me at this thread are assholes, including you. 4.I ended this topic multiple times, if you must post and can't understand this topic is finished then you're not just an asshole, but more like a retarded asshole. --SilentShadow 22:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, this topic is finished. If it's to find out about the glitch, start a new topic, otherwise, no further posts on this topic by anybody. -- Five Dog ( Talk ){ Updates } 22:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)