Talk:The Survivors

Is it "okay" with everyone/the admin/whoever to set up a seperate "Trivia" page for the survivors? There's a whole lot of information that could be added that, while not vital, does make people interested in the game. Dashade 21:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's trivia. We don't exactly need an article filled with trivial things that could just be put on this article or onto the individual playable Survivors' articles. - §tigma-231  ¤ ৳ here's a hole in my neighbourhood [ talk  ][ cont ] 22:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

church guy spawn list
it's said that if the church guy growls, he becomes a hunter, if he gurgles, he becomes a boomer. i have never gotten hunter but always get the growl. i don't think the gurgle is possible. any comments? Shancad 12 08:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Relationship with Other Survivors?
Do you guys think it would be a good idea to add a section to each of the Survivors' own articles, detailing what their relationship with other Survivors appears to be? Of course, we'd have to mark it as speculation, but a lot of wikis do that. I think it would be a nice addition, myself. - §tigma-231 ¤ ৳ here's a  hole  in my neighbourhood [ talk  ][ cont ] 16:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

i dont think it a good idea due there not going to be much to work from and also your starting to slip into the fanon side of things and all that can lead to is alot of trouble lol Spygon 17:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Aw, no details about Francis and Bill's apparent love-hate friendship, or how close Zoey and Louis seem to be?


 * How am I slipping into fanon, anyway? I know the line.  I'm basing the idea on things that happen in the game; how Bill and Francis are always antagonizing each other, for instance.  Bill wipes whatever the goo is that he finds from the corpse(s?) at the beginning on Francis, Francis constantly says things like, "What if just your beard starts to turn?  Can I shoot that, too?", calls him a helpless old man and "Grandpa Bill"...  He doesn't pick on the others nearly as much.  Fanon would be saying something like Francis secretly loves Zoey, but he's trying too hard to act like a tough guy to let it show. - §tigma-231  ¤ ৳ here's a  hole  in my neighbourhood [ talk  ][ cont ] 19:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Time to chime in... First, Zoey and Francis were originally supposed to have a relationship but because of feedback from the playtesters, they took that side-story out. Louis was originally supposed to be comic relief as well... Bill... Well, who cares. Bill, for all we know, was originally supposed to be insane and dancing around in his grandmas panties rubbing himself with peanut butter. This was all mentioned on official sources (and in Commentary Mode).
 * Second, I agree with Stigma: Francis and Bill clearly antagonize each other. Try playing with the sound on.
 * Third, Stigma, if you make the page, I'll help fill it. It's a wiki - anyone can add something relevant, and the so-called "fanon" (which has been verified in-game) is just as much a part of the game as the rest. It's about time we stop obsessing over game-stats, glitches, exploits and maps and get into the theories, ideas, backgrounds and stories that make the game just as, if not more, interesting than other FPS games. Dashade 02:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the information about the relationships would go on each Survivor's respective articles as a section. Depending on how in-depth it is, we could make a subsection for each of the other Survivors, detailing the projected relationship between the two characters.  If little detail is gone into, then it would simply be a paragraph or two highlighting the main parts of it, with references given as to make the theory more...solid. - §tigma-231  ¤ ৳ here's a  hole  in my neighbourhood [ talk  ][ cont ] 03:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

sadly i still have to disagree as you said valve took out all the "relationships" out of the game due to them being "distracting" so most of the time you would be either making it up or guessing what the character is feeling as we all know that humans "feelings and relationships" are hard to guess let alone know what is really going on just from what there saying to each other.I just feel it abit of a waste and will open the door to fanon stories.Also doesnt the wiki have a large amount of theories,ideas and backround but they all have evidence to support themselves so keep up dashade and read more articles.But this is just my opinion and im out voted so i wont get in the way of this article all im asking is that you ask yourself is there any real relevance and need for the article. Spygon 09:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * So, uh, the so-called "fanon" relationships aren't clearly referenced enough for you in Commentary mode to be considered having "evidence" as existing? This is a wiki for Left 4 Dead. That should include all the aspects of it (although I agree, at least partially... Turning the wiki into nothing but erotic fanfic involving Zoey, Francis and a kinky Smoker is a bad idea, although I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to try).


 * Actually, they didn't take out the relationships. I'm not talking about, like, "Oh, Francis, I love you!" from any of the Survivors, EVEN BILL.  I'm talking about how the Survivors generally act towards one another, how they appear to feel about each other, taken from things in the game.  Judging by the dialogue between Zoey and Louis, they seem to be pretty close—"Oh, God, Louis...!  I'm going to miss you!", "Anything for you, Louis!", "My plans!  My plans!".  They get more emotional if they see the others' corpses when compared to, say, Bill's corpse.  Not to mention, Zoey says Louis' name in a somewhat...well, affectionate sort of way.  As I said before, Francis and Bill constantly pick on one another, showing they have some kind of love-hate thing going on, but nothing too extreme.  We're not going to try and come up with theories about their backgrounds, or what could happen in the future, assuming they all survive the Infection.  We're just going to point out how the Survivors feel about each other based on things that have happened/been said in the game, all of which is canon.  It's about reading between the lines. - §tigma-231  ¤ ৳ here's a  hole  in my neighbourhood [ talk  ][ cont ] 17:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

/agree with Stigma. Discussing the obvious based on the obvious isn't fanfic... And it's still a wiki. Anyone can add anything to it. Unless people wanna become a Wiki-Nazi and start telling people what they can and can't add to a wiki (which defeats the purpose of it being a wiki, since we're discussing things related to L4D), let the "relationship" discussion continue, yeah? (No, I'm not calling you a Wiki-Nazi. I'm just saying that trolling a wiki and removing whatever you don't feel is "appropriate" or "necessary" from a wiki when the items that were deleted involve the subject of a wiki is pretty heavy-handed.)

If Louis sees Zoey dead and says "This was not a part of my plans" then... obviously, Louis has some sort of plans involving Zoey. Are we saying they're romantic? No. Do we all have reasons to believe they could be romantic? When Zoey says something like "Anything for you, Louis" when Louis thanks her, yeah... It's pretty obvious they're not just "friends" anymore. Dashade 00:17, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * So it's not possible at all that Louis' "plan" is just to get them all to safety? Of course someone dying is not going to be part of that plan.  --MadDawg2552 15:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * He only says "Zoey! My plans! MY PLANS!" when Zoey dies, although he can say "This isn't part of my plan" when any of the others die. I think this may just be a saying, as in 'things aren't going according to plan'. He is generally optimistic and might have expected all of them to get through alive easily. --Five Dog 15:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

as i said i wont delete or change the new article as im out voted and except that maybe my view isnt the correct one also i only delete things that are vandalism or total bull.Also the way you write it makes it sound like a script to a bad soap lol but as i said ive put in my view and am now leaving it at that Spygon 01:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to add that Louis' "This was not a part of my plans" can occur when "any" of the survivors die. Similarly, if Zoey is picking a badly injured Louis up, she has the chance of saying something like, "Come on, Louis. Don't make me leave your ass!". Aside from that, I want to point something out: She's surrounded by a skin-head, an old war vet, and an I.T. manager. I wouldn't think it strange for her to act more openly affectionate with Louis. Snakexdude11 09:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC) 09:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe Bill was originally supposed to make fun of Francis`s love with Zoey.Another reason why they took out the love between Francis and Zoey(probably)was because people ALWAYS make Francis x Zoey stuff.Bigens 19:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I think we should create the Relationships section. This a wiki, and we CAN base it on fact, not fanon. It would be a good idea. --Five Dog 15:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I think its a good idea anyway i like to hear what people think about L4d(or is fact)--TeriffiedToxic(Check out my wikia and help ploz Its (www.darkcrusade.wikia.com)) 07:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Bill is solid snake, francis is otacon. Take from that what you will. TBM

This part of the article will only descend into fanboys arguing over who Zoey likes best and fans with some imagination but little writing skills coming up with their own overly complex love-hate relationship between characters. This section of the talk page is already evidence of that, all you people are doing is over analysing one liners and changing the meaning to make it fit with your opinion. Best to just not have it. TheBurningPie


 * This discussion's kinda dead. Too little too late. Imperialscouts 22:13, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * This isn't dead, it simply ended well. A nice question that evolved into a topic that was discussed, voted in favour of, forgotten, and then finally implemented.  This is what talk pages are for. ^-^ -- Five Dog   Talk |undefined Read |undefined 22:30, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * You say potato... Imperialscouts 23:55, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's hardly going to go on until the end of time, is it? All things, whether good or bad, must eventually draw to a close. -- Five Dog   Talk |undefined Read |undefined 00:00, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, uh... not what I meant. All I was saying is that disscussions that ended are dead. In my opinion. I'm not disagreeing with you, though there is a difference between discussions that ended and discussions that died. I probably could of said it ended to be more accurate. If that's hard to follow, ending is just a better way of dying for disscusions. Again, in my opinion. Wow, that was rambly. Imperialscouts 02:42, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Church Guy
Can the Church Guy be considered a survivor given what happens to him? He's already been bitten before you even meet him in the game and changes soon after you do. I'd say he's more a casualty than a survivor. -- MadDawg2552 19:34, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I assume the word "survivor" stands for anybody that has survived the first two weeks of the outbreak where obviously the casualty rate of the infection was incredibly high.Also be careful how you word things as you make it sound that the survivors turn into infected too lol Spygon 18:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Only if you don't know how to read English properly. --MadDawg2552 16:00, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

omg i dont mean the meaning of the word i meant how it is used in the game as a Metaphor please dont tell me i have to explain metaphors to you Spygon 18:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I'm not talking about the first part, I was talking about the second part. Where you said the way I worded it sounded like the survivors change into infected, too.  Anyway, never mind about all that.  If we are talking about "survivors" as the people that survived the initial outbreak, then that's fine.  It just seems weird to list him as a survivor even though he turns into a zombie.  --MadDawg2552 18:11, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Several people are claiming that the Church Guy has a 0.1% chance of turning into the Tank. Looking at the game files that determine the chances of a Church Guy into a particular special infected (see the population.txt file in the scripts folder, it states that there is a 50% boomer, 25% hunter and 25% smoker, that's it), there is no evidence of this at all. If anyone wishes to confirm that there is indeed a chance of him transforming into a Tank, it would be better if you provided some form of evidence for this, remember Wikis should be based on solid facts as opposed to floating rumours.. 90.194.153.216 13:23, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it's weird because with different Infected Simplyfied When zoey it's always boomer same with francis And with louis its smoker but hunter with bill Its weird--TeriffiedToxic(Check out my wikia and help ploz Its (www.darkcrusade.wikia.com)) 08:00, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

That's probably a complete coincidence over which special infected the church guy transforms into depending on who opened the door/provoked the church guy. The population.txt file clearly state that there are percentage chances of which special infected appears. 86.28.168.117 10:18, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, that has to be a coincidence, because I've played as zoey and gotten a boomer, hunter, smoker, and once a tank.--Colton Lindsay 19:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmmm good point--TeriffiedToxic(Check out my wikia and help ploz Its (www.darkcrusade.wikia.com)) 12:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Doubt it. He's already been bitten. So when we met him, I think he's more infected than human.Animalx28 01:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Looking in the room he locked himself in was obvious what happen. The dead female zombie was his friend he was crazy with the righting on the wall it comes together and Colton Lindsay you comment about tank coming out of there is wrong and impossible. Wiki itself said it on the bio for Church guy that he spawns boomer hunter or smoker. Don't say a lie if someone can look it up and find out the truth.--Kirby888 19:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you would listen carefully the church guy would say I can't believe he bit me! So it would probably someone he murdered because of his Insanity Dabrules 14:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it was someone who ended up being Infected, who he killed because of that, and after that was when he went insane. - §tigma-231 ♠ o  ƒ  my caliber { τalk }{¢ont } 15:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Or it could be a woman he killed because of paranoia that she could be infected too. Dabrules 13:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The Church Guy has a mustache with blue jacket blue hat and his hair is brown. Super Smart!--Kirby888 22:19, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Chicago Ted origin
The "No Zombies are safe from Chicago Ted" graffiti is a reference to this: http://www.seanbaby.com/cleveland/part5.html

Wouldn't it be cool if you could at least see him or play as him?Animalx28 23:05, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Church guy's friend

 * It was the Church Guy babbling.

Yes it was. And this is what he said.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/mirakuruya/l4d_smalltown03_ranchhouse0001.jpg

If he's babbling, then we can discredit that he changed because he was bitten, it was an hour since he was bitten and other things he said.  BLUER   一番   16:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Left 4 Dead 2 Survivors
Ok, yesterday at E3 they announced Left 4 Dead 2 and showed new survivors, weapons, and even a new special infected. I think we need to get the new survivors on the page as soon as we can Maurthri 19:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting until there are separate pictures of them and we know just a little more, which, sadly, might not be until November 17th. - §tigma-231 ♠ o  ƒ  my caliber { τalk }{¢ont } 19:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

They show them on E3 during gameplay look at them there.--Kirby888 19:43, 8 June 2009 (UTC) LOL kinda obv Stigma User:TeriffiedToxic(Check out my wikia and help ploz Its (www.darkcrusade.wikia.com)) 13:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Hey WTF i didn't put that there I never said that--User:TeriffiedToxic Life as we know it will end soon I think.. 07:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * We need pictures for the wiki to put on the wiki, though. Since you think it's so funny, Terrified, why don't you go find them? ;) - §tigma-231  ♠ o  ƒ  my caliber { τalk }{¢ont } 15:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Ha, in that picture of Coach it looks like he's about to karate chop the camera-man! -- Five Dog ( Talk ){ Updates } 19:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, that's the only image in-game I could find that isn't blurry, he's actually healing Ellis. xD
 * We still need a picture of Ellis for the Survivors page, a decent one until 17th Nov. is alright for now I guess? Zikkun 07:20, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Church Guy's transformation
The page says that he will never turn into a witch. However, one time, when I was playing, we were at the end, with the Church Guy. He had already rung the bell, and the zombies were really hitting us hard. I was hosting the local game, so I decided to be a jackass and sv_cheats 1, noclip into the safe house, and sv_cheats 0. I was in there laughing at my teammates (by the way, this game was never serious), they're yelling at me, so I just wait. When the bell stops, a friggin witch spawns and destroys me. No one could have spawned it, because sv_cheats were off. This leads me to conclude that there is a chance that he turns into a witch. TheCreaturenator16 23:04, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow i never knew, i thought that was impossible--User:TeriffiedToxic Life as we know it will end soon I think.. 07:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If that actually happened, the game files must have been edited. The game is set to only use the hunter, smoker or boomer for him, never the witch. Fadm tyler 02:40, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

Other Survivors
Seeing as Chicago Ted was mentioned, I remember there being a conversation about a group going to fortify a supermarket. Should this be mentioned in this article? They could have made it, I would also like to say, that a campaign to get to this fortified supermarket as this other group would be interesting. --MainMeister90 22:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Both survivors
Don't you think its weird that in L4D there are 3 males and 1 female Its the same for L4D 2

--User:TeriffiedToxic Life as we know it will end soon I think.. 07:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Not really. The majority of players are males and as such prefer to play as male characters. There is one female included to appease any females playing the game and to make it more diverse. The Deep 1 22:14, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

I like to play as zoey because she is smaller than the uthers making it harder for you to get shot by frendly fire.

Church Guy Quotes
This is just a suggestion but, can you give the church guy his own quotes page? Dabrules 8:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I say no, Wiki shouldn't have such huge number of quotes like in each of the Survivors' page and around 75% will be deleted when someone will complete the pages, but I agree that he needs a page already, more than small information is known about him and it's just too much for The Survivors page, or at least a cleanup requires. Zikkun 10:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I think thats a good idea Hey Stigma Make it--User:TeriffiedToxic Life as we know it will end soon I think.. 08:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No. That's really not a good idea at all.  The Church Guy isn't a big enough character in the game(s) to warrant his own page.  On the same note, would you make an article on John Slater or Chicago Ted and expect it to stay there long?  No, you shouldn't.  They don't play much of a role at all, nothing like the role the, I don't know, four playable characters play. - §tigma-231  ♠ o  ƒ  my caliber { τalk }{¢ont } 13:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Just a suggestion, because the Church Guy has a lot of funny quotes.Dabrules 9:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny quotes don't deserve an article. There aren't really a lot, either.  Maybe like, 15, tops. - §tigma-231  ♠ o  ƒ  my caliber { τalk }{¢ont } 15:48, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

"NO! No one gets in! You think your special with your leather jackets in stuff?!?!?!?"--Kirby888 22:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Stigma: i do agree with you tha he shouldn't get his own page. I just thought i could put down a qoute: No! u hav to stay outside! You think your so good with your leather jackets and fancy blood? Zoey: What!?! I just luv that qoute. SuperMutantSlayer450

Resolution
Five Dog, you reverted my edits because Bill's picture was apparently cutting down into Zoey's section. Could you do me a favor and print screen how it looked for you so I can know the difference? I use 16:9 resolution (widescreen), but most people use 4:3 (normal). As such, this changes how I see it, but it changes how others see it. I sound crazy, but here's how the article looked for me before you reverted: L4D section and the L4D2 section. — Baltro [  talk  ·  edits  ] 23:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, my computer is, for lack of a better word, pathetic. It has suffered from minor problems such as not running any games, to major problems such as shutting down randomly. I am very lucky that I can even use the internet properly. I'm afraid that, if I try to do anything of the sort, I will either cause it to freeze, or shut down. Either way, it ends up being powered down.


 * However, in all honesty, if it really annoys you that much, you can change it back. I just didn't want all the text bunched together and the pictures pushing each other out of the way.


 * Warm regards, Five Dog ( Talk ){ Updates } 23:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, being truly, truly honest, I'd really like it if we can keep it the way it is now. It looks nice and neat. ;) -- Five Dog ( Talk ){ Updates } 20:41, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Soldier?
Exactly who is "Soldier" anyway? Any more info on this guy or did somebody just make it all up?Mr. Someguy 11:15, October 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright, since no-one will tell me, I'm removing it until I can get a source. Mr. Someguy 12:33, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Soldier drives the APC in BH.  Strong Intelligent 


 * But where do those quotes come from? I've looked all over the sound folders and never found anything close to that. Mr. Someguy 16:40, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

New L4D2 picture?
I think we should change the L4D2 survivors picture with the one as we see them in the intro. I tried to change the image and every time I do it crashs on me. I did manege to upload the photo though. --VaultGuru 12:45, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Old Survivors in left 4 dead 2
Since they said the old survivors might be in the new game a way they could put them in the game is when after one of the new survivors die and the player spawns in a closet it could be one of the old survivors in the closet or even Chicago ted on rare occasions but that is just an ideaPlatypuslover171 01:32, October 24, 2009 (UTC)Platypuslover171 01:33, October 24, 2009 (UTC)Platypuslover171
 * As much as I'd like Bill, Francis, Louis, and Zoey to be in Left 4 Dead 2, making them pop up in closets after one of your new teamates died doesn't sound like that good of an idea. And from the looks of things, there's gonna cutscenes, which will probably means that the old survivors won't be coming back :( EllisxZoey


 * I can see it now:

Bill: Help me outta here! Coach: Hey Bill Bill: Hey Coach. Thanks for getting me out of that closet when there was no reason for me to be in one since I got rescued by the military at the end of Blood Harvest, and there's certainly no explanation why I'm in Louisiana since the first game took place in Pennsylvania, too. Coach: Yeah... --<font color="DarkGoldenrod">The Scat Man 450  RO <font color="DarkKhaki">A  R! 01:59, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Coach opens door*
 * I know it is very unlikely but it was just a suggestion because they said the survivors might be in the game and it was the only thing I could think of.
 * Put a colon before your response. It looks like I said that. And they might be unlockables, or there may be an 8 vs 8 fight, which would have to include the originals. That would be awesome.--<font color="DarkGoldenrod">The Scat Man 450  RO <font color="DarkKhaki">A  R! 02:16, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * 8 vs 8? That would be interesting. I would imagine it to require much more teamwork from the Infected, though. MaskedMissingno 21:38, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

I heard that they may make it in do to demand as unlockable characters.

My guess is that the original Survivors will unlockable by having certain Achievements from the original game, similar to how players could unlock Carmine, RAAM, and Kim in Gears of War 2.  Captain Baird  Comm-LinkService Record 01:20, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

So, anyone have any news on the old survivors?Gorvar 15:07, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Lambada Logo
has anyone managed to find a lambada logo on any of the l4d2 charecters,or the demo? if they stuck it into Francis' hair in l4d,i got a good feeling it'll be here too --JoeHanSon 01:13, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

May be on one of Nicks rings...--<font color="SeaGreen">'Meester SHOGUN 450  RO <font color="DarkKhaki">A  R! 01:16, November 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not on his texture sheet. However, one of Francis' tattoos is on Nick's ring. Darkman 4 03:27, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

i know it's gonna be in here somewhere,oh well,i guess i'll have to wait--JoeHanSon 04:27, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

L4D2 Survivors preferred weapons
I don't think they have preferred tier 1 and 2, cause during the demo they always just grab whichever new weapon they see. Regulust 20:39, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

its strang as the same thing is hapining to me because I just grab what i see instead of grabing a shoty.
 * Yeah, they dont have any preferred. They choose the weapon they see.

i think it's because of the way the item spawns are set up, like in crash course, if the assuault rifle spawns first,they'll grab that and keep that, someone on pc, spawn 4 AI survivors,and all the weapons,  that'll hopefulyy sort it out--JoeHanSon 20:14, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

I loaded up the first level in the demo about 20 times, the weapon they grab at the start seems rather random. Just going off of Nick Sometimes he would grab the Smg sometimes the shotgun, I don't think they have a favoured weapon in tier 1, they *might* in tier 2 I did'nt test them. Also this is just the demo they might have prefrences in the full game. -Fireside 15/11/09

Keith
Does he really deserve a space? His section is short, and he's not the only friend Ellis talks about. Seems to talk about a guy named "Dave" too... EllisxZoey

Well I was hoping Keith would have a bigger role in the main game. But when the game comes out it might just turn into a section about all of Ellis' friends. Jo the Marten ♠  ( Shriek )  ಠ_ಠ  00:40, November 17, 2009 (UTC)